If you were a fly on the wall listening to the two most prominent festival producers in the history of the game – Jay Sweet (Newport Folk) and Rick Farman (Bonnaroo, Outside Lands) – talk everything fest, here are some of the sweet things you would hear: the back stories, the inspirations, the codes, the collaborations, channeling the spirit of Pete Seeger, what gets them up each morning, the effort it took, as well as what it's like to have Jack White on the grounds of Fort Adams State Park and more.

This interview is about the 365 days of hard work it takes to organize one weekend of music, experience and celebration with your surrogate family. This time though,​ the interviewees are also each other's interviewer, ​in a one-on-one exposé of everything you’ve ever wanted to know about and how they are able to bring some of the most famous (though very different) festivals to fruition each year.

One is situated in the state of Rhode Island and is steeped in history, yet small, selective and modern – the Newport Folk Festival will always delight the music freak inside you. It's where many listeners go to discover and rediscover the sublime music festival experience, knowing that Jay's unparalleled curation will consistently guide and enlighten them year after year.

The other is large and dreamlike; Bonnaroo is an escape into a cornucopia of the arts on a 700-acre farm in Tennessee where fest-goers faithfully subscribe to an entirely new cultural experience annually. The 8-point mission statement of the Newport Festivals Foundation and the Bonnaroovian Code equally apply to us all. Jay and Rick, however, also share and abide by another credo, said by Rick himself, which lies at the heart of each of their respective successes, year after year: "If you're not enhancing the experience, you're interrupting the experience." For these two, it's not about competing with other festivals. It's about improving upon the festival experience and its cultural influence each and every time around. So grab a spot on the wall and listen to the latest buzz as these two icons share their thoughts about the past and their visions for the future.

Rick Farman (left), co-founder of Superfly Productions and Jay Sweet (right), producer of the Newport Folk Festival

Jay Sweet: When you land a major reunion or artist like The Police, these moments where you have gone above and beyond, I’m sure that you, [Jonathan] Mayers and [Richard] Goodstone sit there flying high. I’ve had those moments myself. It took me 6 years to get Jack White to play. Six years of letter writing and buying him hot dogs at SXSW and discussing the historical aspect, 'That’s where Son House played and I know you’re a Son House fan,' etc.…The amount of effort and work that goes into landing an artist that you know is going to make your lineup the best that you can make it and you succeed. But it sets this bar (laughs) and I know you well enough to know that it’s your own personal bar that’s the biggest motivating force. At least I think I know you well enough to say that’s true, am I right?

Rick Farman: Yeah. No doubt.

So when you ask me if it’s a struggle to keep that going, imagine an entire programming budget less than what most major festivals pay one headlining artist.

Yeah. I get it. That’s a challenge. The issue there is do you always keep trying to best yourself or do you rely on providing the overall quality experience? That’s where it’s moving towards. It has to move towards there to a certain degree because of the initial issue you brought up – there are only so many acts. There’s starting to be a lot more competition and within that, you have to ask, what are things you can do to separate yourself? It’s not really about having the best talent at the end of the day. That’s part of it, but you can’t rely on that anymore.

I agree. The difference is what Superfly, in some respects, has done from the get-go is focus on music and arts. Everyone talks about Bonnaroo as a music festival and I, as one of your biggest proponents, who went the first 10 years, has always said that you’ve been aligning yourself, almost preparing yourself, in some respects, as an “experience” festival, and that was super smart. Maybe music isn’t the biggest thing when you go down there. Maybe all the music you see is on the Solar Stage. Maybe you see a couple of dance things in the middle of the night. Maybe it’s the cool sonic installations. The food trucks…whatever it is…that’s a little bit of the difference in some respects. One, because you guys have a permanent home. You bought the farm, literally, and you’ve been building it out. For us, it’s on a state park in the middle of the bay and we simply don’t have the room. If we were to put in a Ferris wheel, a silent disco, etc it would mean less capacity meaning less people able to see music. For us, the experience is obviously that you’re out on this peninsula, on the water and – other than perhaps Red Rocks and the Gorge – it’s the most fabulous setting to see music. But the struggle in some respects is that it’s almost 100% dependent on the music. Now, the one caveat being, it isn’t necessarily, in fact it’s very rarely headliner-driven, meaning it’s all about the whole lineup. It’s Artist 1 through 66, and I think that is the one benefit. I think people buy tickets to go to Bonnaroo and I think the lineup is part of it, but I think it’s the experience. If people experienced it once, they want to keep experiencing it. It’s a place to congregate. It’s a place to celebrate. It’s a place to get your ya-yas out (laughs) in a somewhat safe, inviting environment and that’s kind of rare in today’s world. It’s a good place for people to come together, to just celebrate music and life, art and cool and whatever. I think Newport is that place as well but because of our much smaller size it’s more like an intimate family reunion, with a small select crew, and it’s all about music. You kind of have to be a music freak, and the struggle every year is to make the lineup worthy of our fans buying tickets even before we announce the lineup.

The Newport Folk Festival, Photo by WFUV Creative Commons

Yeah. I would be interested to know, at the end of the day, how much your fans, people who are buying tickets, how much year-to-year they are coming for specific acts or not. Obviously, that’s something we’re always curious about. I’d be curious.

Yeah. It’s a difficult one. If you were to ask me, do you think we’ll sell out this year? I’d say, yes, because we sold out last year before the artists were announced. So, 2016 is the question. If you have a down year, and down being only within our minds maybe, if you have a year in which it’s not headline-driven, it’s more the collective lineup, the question is, after there isn’t some monster surprise thing, and it’s 2016 – is the experience the same? Is it greater? Is it less? That, to me, is the true telltale sign that maybe it’s not as headliner-driven as we assume. Since I've been involved, we haven’t had that because I think the lineup has gotten more and more full with each year. I think while that’s good, it creates a lot of competition for the very few slots. At the same time, the weird thing is, and I think you would agree, that feeling when you look at some of the social media – and we do all read what our community is saying – it’s funny how they always talk about the bigger name leading into it. “Oh, big band name is playing! I’m so excited.” But, invariably those same people, are also writing about an artist or band they didn’t know existed before that weekend. Curating is the amazing part of the job. To believe that you are trusted with the ability to put together a live playlist and that people will dig it. It’s the curatorial thing that makes me get up in the morning.

I know that your specialty in the posse that is Superfly is really about the experience, and a lot of the physical aspects for the enjoyment of the goer.

When it relates specifically to Bonnaroo or Outside Lands, my job is definitely more on the overall operational management of the event and it’s also on the business development side – looking for new opportunities that exist within those properties. It’s also a bit of an administrator role for the partnerships, kind of keeping everyone in communication and leading on that side of things.

I stole this quote from you and you probably don’t even remember saying it. It stuck with me for going on almost 10 years. It was 'If you’re not enhancing the experience, you’re interrupting the experience.' Do you still feel that’s true? I mean working within what you’re trying to do on-site, whether it be a partnership or a sponsor or something. Is that the question you keep asking yourself?

Yeah. We have that same ideal that we started with and it relates to corporate partnerships. Like what are you doing here? Why are you here? Are you contributing? And you’re right, if you’re not contributing, you’re probably detracting. We just don’t play that. There’s a lot of people who probably do and people who put on fine events. It’s just not the taste or style in which we do things.

Right. It’s a tenet that has allowed you to be what Superfly has become, and you stick to that. I always ask myself, 'What would Pete do?' I have the spirit of Pete Seeger continuously in my head when tempted to do something financially beneficial but might hurt the overall experience in the long run. I just have this kind of bangy, twangy thing in my head that says 'Would Pete ever sing in front of that sign?' Or 'Would Pete ever say 'yeah, that’s cool.'' It’s not always easy to keep a long view when you’re just worried about getting through the year.

Yeah. Totally.

Photo by Casey Flanigan

When you go to other festivals, what do you look at first? What’s your experience going to other festivals? Do you ever do it? I do it less than I used to, unfortunately. What’s your feeling about other festivals in general? Going to them, experiencing them.

I think it’s super important. Our team does it pretty frequently. Personally, like you said, I probably haven’t done it as much over the last 2 or 3 years as I had earlier on, but it’s crucial. I will say, when we first started with Bonnaroo, there were about 5 years when we were really hardcore about going to other stuff. Then we hit a little bit of a lull, where it was like, okay, I’ve seen it. I’ve seen a lot of stuff and as I was going to more stuff, there were different flavors but the same dish, essentially. I went to Burning Man for the first time 4 years ago and that absolutely reinvigorated me on a variety of levels, and I made a lot of subsisted changes to the way we do things with Bonnaroo that were really a part of that experience. It was really profound. It, again, got me back in the mindset of really expanding the breadth of knowledge and expansion for doing our events.

I’m guessing that might be what were talking about with how important the experiential part, not just the listening part, has played in the last few years of Bonnaroo.

I think it’s definitely part of it, and there are elements of how we are looking to produce the entertainment aspects of the event, the diversification of it, and sort of having more fantastical, surprise and delight, specialty areas and zones and concepts and things. But I would say actually in many ways, the thing that I took away most and have implemented the most from Burning Man was around really helping to sort of solidify and to help the culture expand and get deeper and richer. You have to be careful about those things, because you’re not trying to manufacture it. As a producer, I think it’s really important to just support it and to put a time structure in place that helps new people understand it, and to sort of logistically enable things that help deepen the culture.

Yeah and they definitely have their 10 tenets that they help other people take to other Burning Man events all around the world.

Yeah, and that’s one of the central things that we did. We have a code now at Bonnaroo. We had never had that prior to Burning Man. I was inspired by the principles.

Photo of Ryan Adams performing at Newport Folk Festival, by WFUV Creative Commons

That’s a great thing. That’s helping define your culture without making it a manifesto. It’s inclusive and it allows a framework for people to be, to invest their time and energy into what you’re trying to achieve, and help them to reach those goals internally as well. I think you’ve always done a good job at that. I think that with San Francisco, with Outside Lands, I know you were really one of the people who were kind of spearheading that opportunity and moved out there. Right?

Yeah.

They’re not the same. I try to explain to people, 'Oh I’ve been to Bonnaroo, I don’t need to go to Outside Lands.' There are definitely some similarities. Obviously the fingerprints are definitely you. What would you say to someone what you think the biggest difference is, besides just camping?

It’s a totally different style of event. The sort of large scale camping event and the city park festivals, they’re just two different things. They might be two different flavors of the same dish in a way, but they’re very different flavors, like savory and sweet – that far along the spectrum. Bonnaroo is a thing that we created that was an exponent of, inspired by, the original sort of experimental rock scene in America that now, because of the roots of that sort thing, has developed into something that’s a true cornucopia of arts that are about coming together in a field and getting away from the outside world and the day-to-day, and immersing yourself in that style of artistic culture. That’s what Bonnaroo is. Outside Lands is really an expression of the Bay Area culture, and everything this rich environment has to offer. And I’d say that probably the thing that was most influential on Outside Lands is really the New Orleans Jazz Festival. No doubt. When we were creating Outside Lands with our history of having started our business in New Orleans and Jazz Fest being part of our early development, we looked to how you could create an event that really spoke to what a culture of a community in a city was about. That’s kind of our guiding principle behind Outside Lands.

I think that’s why it’s so great.

Photo of Newport Folk Festival by WFUV Creative Commons

Something I wanted to ask about Newport, what do you feel you have to do to represent the history of Newport? Where’s that line between putting on a festival that’s modern, to we want to make sure this community is tied to this long history? Newport obviously plays an important role in American festival history, so I’m curious about what do you guys do to represent that and how do you treat that?

That’s actually really interesting that you think about Newport that way because, it’s something we think about all the time…it sets the tone. Sometimes it’s just hand-delivered to you – someone in Beck’s camp says 'Yeah. This is the year we want to do it.' You’re like 'ah, phew!' It didn’t just fall out of the sky. Luck is 95% perspiration. Like Mavis Staples last year: it was her 75th birthday, and we get a call and it’s like 'Hey, look, it’s Mavis’ 75th birthday. We don’t want to be presumptuous, but she’d love to celebrate it. It’s usually on the Newport weekend. She’d love to celebrate it at Newport. Do you think you might be able to do a set with her?' And the answer was 'No, I think we’d like to dedicate the 3 days of the whole weekend to her.' Why? It was also the 50th anniversary of her playing the festival for the first time. Meaning, she was 25 years old and she played with Pops. She’s played almost a dozen times over the years and she’s been witness for all these amazing moments. Hell, Bob Dylan asked to marry her. So you’re like okay, well, that’s something. 'Hey Mavis, let’s sit down. Yeah, let’s get Jeff Tweedy, he’d be there. And hey, I know you’re friends with Norah Jones, so let’s get her there…' That’s the bridging of that gap because like you guys, for me, it’s all about collaboration. As you said, you can’t force that stuff. I’ve learned that. I always say, I just buy the groceries and hope those artists can cook up a hell of a meal.

Photo of Skrillex at Bonnaroo by Casey Flanigan

You try to put certain people on certain stages together that you know have some history, but for that idea it’s not only collaborative, but it’s bridging the gap. I just say, 'How are we going to bridge the gap?' And what that gap means is, how do you show people that Earl Scruggs connects with Tall Tall Trees or when you see Chris Thile or the Punch Brothers, it’s amazing but there’s a direct line to what was happening with Ralph Stanley. You try to show that by putting Ralph Stanley and then the Punch Brothers, or, usually, the Punch Brothers into Ralph Stanley. We like all our artists to feel like they’re just writing the next chapter in probably the longest ongoing music story, in America at least. You come and Jack White shows up and you think, 'Is he going to understand this or is this like a country fair gig for him?' And immediately he’s like, 'Is the flag at half mast because of Pete Seeger?' And then he kind of nods and he starts asking questions that show his intimate knowledge, that he realizes where he is and what he’s about to be a part of. I think all we do, to answer your question in a less winded way. Do we think about it? Always!

What about any of the archives and stuff like that?

Well, it’s amazing that you said that. I just recently had my first sit-down, one-on-one without lawyers and all the other baggage in the room, with Murray Lerner, who captured all those early years. The movie FESTIVAL! or The Other Side of the Mirror, all those things are at Newport. He just sent me a list of the other 100+ hours that haven’t been seen. Johnny Cash stuff, introducing the world to Kris Kristofferson at Newport, or Janis Joplin and all these things that have never seen the light of day. We’re just now trying to figure it out because we’re non-profit, we don’t have the capital to jump into the project yet.

Another thing I learned from you is we just capture it, capture as much content as possible, and before worrying about what’s going to come of it, just capture it and figure something out. Murray did the same thing. He just kept the cameras rolling all the time. So, it would almost be this amazing series to say, 'Hey, let me show this piece of the Avett Brothers playing, or let me show these pieces of Andrew Bird and the Decemberists playing with Beck at Newport and Ramblin’ Jack Elliott walks out' and have Murray turn around and go 'Yeah, let me get me my Ramblin’ Jack Elliott coming in and Bob Dylan and Pete Seeger walk out.' Let’s play these black and white versus your color. It was an amazing meeting. I’ve just started to be able to actually, believe it or not, just have the ability and the bandwidth to try to dig into that stuff because I think it’s important. It’s funny, because you’re a musicologist and it always surprises me when people don’t have musical historical context. It happens, so I think that’s an important part of what we deliver as a festival, and it is in our mission statement to continuously perpetuate folk music and jazz music. It’s our mission to keep bridging the years.

Very cool. Awesome.

Well, Rick. I appreciate the time as always. Always a joy talking shop. Congratulations on all the family changes and one of these days, I’ll make it back to Outside Lands.

Thanks. We’d love to have you, man.

Doors always open at Newport, man.

I’d love to make it.